Did the MCM today
Tire pressure wasn't the problem, at any time. Other than yesterday when it was completely out of air and wobbling unsafely. I only went 100 yards with it. This was a month old tube that somehow ripped the valve connection loose - cheap Chinese tubes.
The MCM wasn't worth timing because is was so obvious the bike was down on power. I'd made up some part throttle limiters for the 36mm previously and I know how quick the bike still was even when limited to half throttle. With the MCM there was less power than that.
The MCM wasn't worth timing because is was so obvious the bike was down on power. I'd made up some part throttle limiters for the 36mm previously and I know how quick the bike still was even when limited to half throttle. With the MCM there was less power than that.
The "above my pay grade" comment was basically saying that I have not done the mod myself and so I don't really know what I'm talking about in the subject other than the few posts that I've read on here. I have installed a #190 cam in my DR650, but haven't cracked open my KLX. I guess I should have left the first sentence out and only asked if Richard should have left the mod in for a test ride before giving up on it.
Last edited by Richard Avatar; Jan 4, 2015 at 10:57 PM.
His mark is poorly done and the photo is mediocre. When I looked in closely after doing the work it is in fact 2-1/2 teeth from the surface of the head to the timing mark with the piston at TDC compression. Rotation is counterclockwise on the intake and clockwise on the exhaust.
His comments with minor spelling corrections are:
"Well , if we look CLOSELY at a sprocket we see that the distance between the two holes that correspond to " for INtake " and " for EXhaust " is two and A HALF teeth ....
... For intake we give it 2 and a half teeth more advance by putting the screws in the position that corresponds to exhaust and then we retard the camshaft 2 teeth in the chain . The difference , as far as the cam is concerned , is a 1/2 tooth ( 10-something degrees )
For the exhaust cam it´s the same , but in the opposite direction : we retard the cam by putting the screws in the intake position and then we put the sprocket 2 teeth more advanced in the chain . This cam will de 1/2 teeth retarded ( 10.5 degrees ) ."
Counting from the cam sprocket marking it is 2-1/2 teeth. The cam was rotated 2 teeth to compensate for that roughly 20 degrees, leaving that 1/2 tooth difference, thus the timing mark is 2-1/2 teeth above the surface.
Take a look at this - his other photo showing both cams in situ from a better point of view. The rotation is evident, as it was when I did the work. Granted the marks are ever so slightly off the tooth center, but for all intents and purposes based on the point of the teeth, it is 2-1/2 teeth in visual appearance.

Whenever the piston is at TDC compression and there is proper directional pull on the cam chain, the marks are 2-1/2 teeth above the surface. Visually that is what I saw in the process of doing the work.
His comments with minor spelling corrections are:
"Well , if we look CLOSELY at a sprocket we see that the distance between the two holes that correspond to " for INtake " and " for EXhaust " is two and A HALF teeth ....
... For intake we give it 2 and a half teeth more advance by putting the screws in the position that corresponds to exhaust and then we retard the camshaft 2 teeth in the chain . The difference , as far as the cam is concerned , is a 1/2 tooth ( 10-something degrees )
For the exhaust cam it´s the same , but in the opposite direction : we retard the cam by putting the screws in the intake position and then we put the sprocket 2 teeth more advanced in the chain . This cam will de 1/2 teeth retarded ( 10.5 degrees ) ."
Counting from the cam sprocket marking it is 2-1/2 teeth. The cam was rotated 2 teeth to compensate for that roughly 20 degrees, leaving that 1/2 tooth difference, thus the timing mark is 2-1/2 teeth above the surface.
Take a look at this - his other photo showing both cams in situ from a better point of view. The rotation is evident, as it was when I did the work. Granted the marks are ever so slightly off the tooth center, but for all intents and purposes based on the point of the teeth, it is 2-1/2 teeth in visual appearance.

Whenever the piston is at TDC compression and there is proper directional pull on the cam chain, the marks are 2-1/2 teeth above the surface. Visually that is what I saw in the process of doing the work.
Last edited by klx678; Jan 6, 2015 at 01:05 PM.
The two cam gear mounting holes may be 2.5 teeth apart, but you're only moving the cam gear 2 teeth. Forget the mod and just think of moving the gear two teeth in the chain-the original timing mark would now have to be only 2 teeth above the plain of the top of the head. (because the gear's only been moved 2 teeth)
You can't move the gear 2 teeth and now see a 2.5 tooth difference while sighting level along the top of the head. (That photo wasn't taken with the camera level with the plain of the top of the head.)
The other half tooth comes into play when you rotate the IN cam CW to line up its cam gear mounting holes to with the EX holes in the gear-advancing the cam half a tooth. But the cam gear is still only rotated 2 teeth from stock position, and the engine is still at TDC.
Or, do it the other way: take the bolts out of the IN cam gear and rotate the cam CW so its holes line up with the EX holes in the cam gear that are 2.5 teeth away, then put the bolts back in and rotate the IN cam and gear assembly CCW 2 teeth. The cam's half a tooth advanced net and the cam gear's been moved 2 teeth CCW from its original timing position.
Focusing on just the new and old timing marks on the cam gears in a photo like this, it doesn't matter what you've done with the cams, the gear has only been moved 2 teeth in the chain, and its new and old timing marks would have to only show a difference of 2 teeth as sighted level with along the head surface.
You can't move the gear 2 teeth and now see a 2.5 tooth difference while sighting level along the top of the head. (That photo wasn't taken with the camera level with the plain of the top of the head.)
The other half tooth comes into play when you rotate the IN cam CW to line up its cam gear mounting holes to with the EX holes in the gear-advancing the cam half a tooth. But the cam gear is still only rotated 2 teeth from stock position, and the engine is still at TDC.
Or, do it the other way: take the bolts out of the IN cam gear and rotate the cam CW so its holes line up with the EX holes in the cam gear that are 2.5 teeth away, then put the bolts back in and rotate the IN cam and gear assembly CCW 2 teeth. The cam's half a tooth advanced net and the cam gear's been moved 2 teeth CCW from its original timing position.
Focusing on just the new and old timing marks on the cam gears in a photo like this, it doesn't matter what you've done with the cams, the gear has only been moved 2 teeth in the chain, and its new and old timing marks would have to only show a difference of 2 teeth as sighted level with along the head surface.
Last edited by Richard Avatar; Jan 6, 2015 at 08:37 PM.
I am just telling you what I actually saw and what Marcelino stated. In the image notice, that the intake mark is rotated slightly clockwise relative to the tooth on the sprocket, where the exhaust mark is rotated slightly counterclockwise related to the tooth, about a half tooth total difference. That is why there is a half tooth when set up properly.
I added the red lines to make it clear. They are not perfect, but close enough to show there is a significant, and likely, very nearly 1/2 tooth difference in positioning.
I would venture to guess that due to the dimensional positioning of the intake cam and the exhaust cam in relationship to each other with the chain in place at TDC compression will allow the marks to line up horizontal to the head and each other when in the appropriate holes - intake holes on intake cam and exhaust holes on exhaust cam - but will NOT be able to line up when the exhaust holes are used on the intake cam and the intake holes on the exhaust cam. They will be off. Unfortunately I do not have my bike apart and do not plan to do so at this time.
After all, if there wasn't that 1/2 tooth difference we'd be changing the cams by 2 teeth then putting them right back... no change... no performance change... All dyno readings would be the same as before and no performance change... doesn't make sense.
I added the red lines to make it clear. They are not perfect, but close enough to show there is a significant, and likely, very nearly 1/2 tooth difference in positioning.
I would venture to guess that due to the dimensional positioning of the intake cam and the exhaust cam in relationship to each other with the chain in place at TDC compression will allow the marks to line up horizontal to the head and each other when in the appropriate holes - intake holes on intake cam and exhaust holes on exhaust cam - but will NOT be able to line up when the exhaust holes are used on the intake cam and the intake holes on the exhaust cam. They will be off. Unfortunately I do not have my bike apart and do not plan to do so at this time.
After all, if there wasn't that 1/2 tooth difference we'd be changing the cams by 2 teeth then putting them right back... no change... no performance change... All dyno readings would be the same as before and no performance change... doesn't make sense.
Nope
Forget the cams are there. Forget the mod entirely for a second.
If you only rotate the cam gears 2 teeth in the chain as instructed, their old timing marks would have to be 2 teeth away from where they originally were!
The 2 side by side holes in each cam are 2 and a half teeth apart, Don't mix that number up with how far you're moving the cam gears.
Or
Moving the cams alone to the new holes moves them 2.5 teeth (the distance between the holes); rotating the cam and gear 2 teeth in the chain the opposite direction now removes 2 of the 2.5 teeth difference/distance between the IN and EX holes in the gear.
Leaving you a 1/2 tooth timing cam change "net".
Original instruction were:
For intake we give it (the cam) 2 and a half teeth more advance by putting the screws in the position that corresponds to exhaust and then we retard the camshaft (and its attached gear) 2 teeth in the chain . The difference , as far as the cam is concerned , is a 1/2 tooth ( 10-something degrees )
For the exhaust cam it´s the same , but in the opposite direction : we retard the cam by puting the screws in the intake position and then we put the sprocket (and attached camshaft) 2 teeth more advanced in the chain . This cam will be 1/2 teeth retarded ( 10.5 degrees ) .
.
Forget the cams are there. Forget the mod entirely for a second.
If you only rotate the cam gears 2 teeth in the chain as instructed, their old timing marks would have to be 2 teeth away from where they originally were!
The 2 side by side holes in each cam are 2 and a half teeth apart, Don't mix that number up with how far you're moving the cam gears.
Or
Moving the cams alone to the new holes moves them 2.5 teeth (the distance between the holes); rotating the cam and gear 2 teeth in the chain the opposite direction now removes 2 of the 2.5 teeth difference/distance between the IN and EX holes in the gear.
Leaving you a 1/2 tooth timing cam change "net".
Original instruction were:
For intake we give it (the cam) 2 and a half teeth more advance by putting the screws in the position that corresponds to exhaust and then we retard the camshaft (and its attached gear) 2 teeth in the chain . The difference , as far as the cam is concerned , is a 1/2 tooth ( 10-something degrees )
For the exhaust cam it´s the same , but in the opposite direction : we retard the cam by puting the screws in the intake position and then we put the sprocket (and attached camshaft) 2 teeth more advanced in the chain . This cam will be 1/2 teeth retarded ( 10.5 degrees ) .
.
Last edited by Richard Avatar; Jan 10, 2015 at 07:57 PM.
Tō-mā-tō, tō-mă-tō. Pō-tā-tō, pō-tă-tō...
Semantics I just don't care about (definition 3 at dictionary.com if there's any question to the meaning of "semantics" here).
1/2 tooth change in timing, showing as a rotation of about 2-1/2 teeth from the surface of the head to verify it is in correct position, if off a tooth either way it will be significantly clear in comparison and that is what it is for - comparison. Short of using a degree wheel it is the proof that the change has been made properly.
The fact that it is not exact is pretty much beside the point for anyone doing the modification. It is kind of like his using the knife blade to show the KACR placement - it is relative. The 2-1/2 teeth from horizontal is purely relative. It is visually accurate enough, much as the marks lining up with the surface is when in stock position confirming the cam position for stock alignment in the Kawasaki manual.
Semantics I just don't care about (definition 3 at dictionary.com if there's any question to the meaning of "semantics" here).
1/2 tooth change in timing, showing as a rotation of about 2-1/2 teeth from the surface of the head to verify it is in correct position, if off a tooth either way it will be significantly clear in comparison and that is what it is for - comparison. Short of using a degree wheel it is the proof that the change has been made properly.
The fact that it is not exact is pretty much beside the point for anyone doing the modification. It is kind of like his using the knife blade to show the KACR placement - it is relative. The 2-1/2 teeth from horizontal is purely relative. It is visually accurate enough, much as the marks lining up with the surface is when in stock position confirming the cam position for stock alignment in the Kawasaki manual.
Last edited by klx678; Jan 10, 2015 at 08:21 PM.
"Have you ever heard about the three men that were out on the town? After having consumed more drink than they should, they decided to wear it off by staying overnight in a hotel. The desk clerk charged them $30.00 for the room. Shortly afterwards the desk clerk realized that he had overcharged the three men by $5.00. He calls the Bell Boy over, gives him the $5.00 and explains to him that he had overcharged the three men and asked him to go up and give them the $5.00. On his way up, the Bell Boy thinks they will be happy to get a refund so why don't I give them each $1.00. They will be happy and I will have picked up $2.00.
- But when he does that and gives each man $1.00, that means they only paid $9.00 each for the room, which is a total of $27.00; plus the $2.00 the Bell Boy pocketed is a total of $29.00. But they gave the desk clerk $30.00!
Where did the extra $1.00 go??"
Forget the picture and mod entirely.. Forget the number 2.5

Just think of unbolting the cam gear from the cam and rotating the gear 2 teeth in the chain.
How many teeth has the timing mark (previously level with the plain of the head) been moved?
There's no semantics involved.
Last edited by Richard Avatar; Jan 10, 2015 at 09:27 PM.
It's important to get the explanation of the post-mod tooth count correct so anyone doing the mod in the future isn't laboring to somehow have the new position of the factory timing mark 2.5 teeth above the head when it's really just to be moved 2..

Pop quiz! How many teeth from your red line - which crosses the back side of the tooth to the back side of the tooth at my red line?
The timing mark is exactly there at the backside of the tooth because there's where KHI wanted it.
Move the cam gear 6 teeth in the chain just for fun, How many teeth is the original timing mark away from horizontal now?
2.5 ?
6 ?
Pop quiz! How many teeth from your red line - which crosses the back side of the tooth to the back side of the tooth at my red line?
The timing mark is exactly there at the backside of the tooth because there's where KHI wanted it.
Move the cam gear 6 teeth in the chain just for fun, How many teeth is the original timing mark away from horizontal now?
2.5 ?
6 ?
Last edited by Richard Avatar; Jan 11, 2015 at 01:06 AM.


