Dialing back on the HP, focusing on torque under 6.5k
#61
07-02-2017, 01:32 AM
"Seems from Partzilla that all the KLX250s from 1994-up run the same cams at least in the U.S. Look for your self. Also looked up 2006 and 2012 KLX250S exhaust cams on Kawasaki site and found same part number 12044-0746 . SnowCity showed the same part too 12044-0746."
Seems to me this "myth" should be put to bed. Maybe a bit more research needed.
klx678. Try a web site that lists original numbers as well as superseded numbers. Fortnine.ca lists both.
Get a pencil and paper and go through all the 300 years and 250 years. You may be surprised at all the different numbers for exh. cams but not convinced and that's OK with me.
I just had my original -1175 exh. cam and shiny the new superseded -0746 in my hands and they are indeed different. Didn't go to the point of "degreeing" both 'cause I have no bone to chew here but I'm pretty good with a mic and more than just understand what I should be measuring.
They're different but believe what you want but from what I measured I hope to see some over the over rev that my buds '09 has in mine now.
Seems to me this "myth" should be put to bed. Maybe a bit more research needed.
klx678. Try a web site that lists original numbers as well as superseded numbers. Fortnine.ca lists both.
Get a pencil and paper and go through all the 300 years and 250 years. You may be surprised at all the different numbers for exh. cams but not convinced and that's OK with me.
I just had my original -1175 exh. cam and shiny the new superseded -0746 in my hands and they are indeed different. Didn't go to the point of "degreeing" both 'cause I have no bone to chew here but I'm pretty good with a mic and more than just understand what I should be measuring.
They're different but believe what you want but from what I measured I hope to see some over the over rev that my buds '09 has in mine now.
- 94-94 part 12044-1364 Obsolete
- 06-07 part 12044-1365 Obsolete
- 09-11 part 12044-1075 incl Canada Obsolete
- 12-14 part 12044-0746 Active
Then I did a google search for availability on the part number. I checked a few locations, all listed those numbers, but all forwarded to the 12044-0746 part.
So the only assumption I can make is that for whatever reason whether it is due to miniscule differences or different manufacturing source (plant or supplier) Kawasaki has revised the listing to the latest number. I have no idea what your mic readings might be and don't doubt them, but the key measure would have to be in degreeing the cam lobe and measuring the lift, then probably going as far as to measure the lift every 10 degrees to see if the profile is truly different or if there was some difference in grind.
Either way, per Kawasaki parts supplies there is no difference in their book. Now to go find a used 94-96 exhaust cam...
I should have dug deeper.
Last edited by klx678; 07-02-2017 at 01:42 AM.
#62
07-02-2017, 02:06 AM
Similar discussion about different ex cams 5 yrs ago in the MCM thread.
https://www.kawasakiforums.com/forum...37/#post476735
https://www.kawasakiforums.com/forum...37/#post476735
#63
07-02-2017, 11:55 AM
I think one thing people expect with power increase is more rpm. The stock set up maxes hp at around 8600 I think the MCM didn't go above that and possibly slightly below, but the charts are gone and the numbers not mentioned. What a shame, the images are gone from the internet due to the technique of sharing. Wish they'd have been uploaded on this site.
Either way, unless the power comes in at higher rpm, sheer rpm or top speed is not a valid measure. It has to be some kind of semi-scientific roll on results or a dyno run to prove the results are an improvement. I'm seeing that in the scooter threads, guys go big bore thinking they'll gain speed, but that doesn't work since the peak power rpm hasn't changed significantly. I had that with my big bore 650, it wouldn't go any faster, just pulled a lot stronger. We got some side by side comparisons to know what we felt.
In a number of cases here riders have said the MCM made the bike stronger in the middle. Some did roll on testing some did dyno. No higher speed, but rather better pull.
The old cam thing is interesting, but one of those low buck 299 kits isn't much more than the cams if not less. I'm betting from experience, more punch can be had there.
Either way, unless the power comes in at higher rpm, sheer rpm or top speed is not a valid measure. It has to be some kind of semi-scientific roll on results or a dyno run to prove the results are an improvement. I'm seeing that in the scooter threads, guys go big bore thinking they'll gain speed, but that doesn't work since the peak power rpm hasn't changed significantly. I had that with my big bore 650, it wouldn't go any faster, just pulled a lot stronger. We got some side by side comparisons to know what we felt.
In a number of cases here riders have said the MCM made the bike stronger in the middle. Some did roll on testing some did dyno. No higher speed, but rather better pull.
The old cam thing is interesting, but one of those low buck 299 kits isn't much more than the cams if not less. I'm betting from experience, more punch can be had there.
#64
07-02-2017, 05:25 PM
Well we know exactly how MCM affects power levels on '09's and up. We have this data and it is posted. Anyone that wants to see the difference, can. And many years worth of DynoButt analysis of the riding experience MCM offers..
MCM power ('09+) is not subjective, or subject to speculation, it is objective - https://www.kawasakiforums.com/forum...timings-44296/
What we don't have is data on '06's and '07's. Information about the effects of MCM on these bikes are still DynoButt based - subjective..
MCM power ('09+) is not subjective, or subject to speculation, it is objective - https://www.kawasakiforums.com/forum...timings-44296/
What we don't have is data on '06's and '07's. Information about the effects of MCM on these bikes are still DynoButt based - subjective..
Last edited by Klxster; 07-02-2017 at 05:37 PM.
#65
07-03-2017, 02:46 AM
I've gone back through the last few pages and have reached a conclusion for myself...
If the MAJ, needle and emulsion tube are in fact different in my carb than for the american equivalent, I'm getting started on the wrong foot by changing the demands on the carb with the MCM... and then attempting to use proven configurations for other MAJ, needles and emultions tubes.. to accommodate those changes
My first impulse would be to try using the stock needle with the k158 main jet, to see if the needle jet and emulsion tube are negatively effected by using the DJ needle for 09-2014 american cvk34 components...
but
This might be off the mark, should I try smaller mains with lidless and DJ needle 1n before changing needles? Oh jeez.. so much to think about :/
Order a new emulsion tube?
Get a tm36? :P
If the MAJ, needle and emulsion tube are in fact different in my carb than for the american equivalent, I'm getting started on the wrong foot by changing the demands on the carb with the MCM... and then attempting to use proven configurations for other MAJ, needles and emultions tubes.. to accommodate those changes
My first impulse would be to try using the stock needle with the k158 main jet, to see if the needle jet and emulsion tube are negatively effected by using the DJ needle for 09-2014 american cvk34 components...
but
This might be off the mark, should I try smaller mains with lidless and DJ needle 1n before changing needles? Oh jeez.. so much to think about :/
Order a new emulsion tube?
Get a tm36? :P
Last edited by DitchPickle; 07-03-2017 at 03:23 AM.
#66
07-03-2017, 04:50 AM
DP, all I know about you having some kind of rideability issue is an intermittent sensation of "dragging a rope" in the midrange. This is most certainly a minor slide issue - intermittent stiction from improperly indexed slide spring ( in the cap ) , roughness of the slide and/or dirty slide channel in the casting, etc etc..
#67
07-03-2017, 01:09 PM
Get a TM36-68. So many riders here say it is one of the best things the've done. Direct cable operated slide control and an accelerator pump to "juice it" a bit. Fair amount of jetting tips in this forum, but I'd think buying a new one set up for the bike would get it in the infield of the ball park.
Did you try the enrichener thing and was there any change? That's how I found I was still lean with a shimmed stock needle. Kind of a soft on-off surge at around 5500-6500. Pulled the enrichener button (aka choke) and the surging mostly went away.
Knew of the enrichener trick because when we were flat tracking 2 strokes, one rider's mechanic came up with some crazy thing due to trying to jet for max power,which is usually dangerously close to seizure due to lean oil mix. The rider was to run full throttle down the straights and pull the enrichener lever mounted on the bars by the clutch about 2/3 down the straightaway. No idea if it worked for them, but the idea stuck - the enrichener adds a richer fuel/air mix to the intake along with the mix through the throat. I tried it and it worked to help a lean mix surge.
Did you try the enrichener thing and was there any change? That's how I found I was still lean with a shimmed stock needle. Kind of a soft on-off surge at around 5500-6500. Pulled the enrichener button (aka choke) and the surging mostly went away.
Knew of the enrichener trick because when we were flat tracking 2 strokes, one rider's mechanic came up with some crazy thing due to trying to jet for max power,which is usually dangerously close to seizure due to lean oil mix. The rider was to run full throttle down the straights and pull the enrichener lever mounted on the bars by the clutch about 2/3 down the straightaway. No idea if it worked for them, but the idea stuck - the enrichener adds a richer fuel/air mix to the intake along with the mix through the throat. I tried it and it worked to help a lean mix surge.
#68
07-03-2017, 06:17 PM
Here's a list of driveability issues I experience with my 2007 Canadian KLX250s using MCM, k158, 35 pilot, kouba t handle 3 turns out 2125 DJ needle at 1n and no airbox lid
-on cold starts, the bike will bog when given throttle unless the enrichener is pulled out. After a couple minutes it will accept throttle. This does not happen with the lid on, DJ 128 and needle at 3n
-when cruising along between 5500 and 6500 rpm, there is a "surge" or a feeling that the bike is dragging a rope.. this is just how MY mind imagines the sensation. That might not be the best description for someone else who might experience the same thing. Either way, it happens only at this rpm range, and only with the k158 lidless recipe. Does not happen with DJ stage 2
-No feeling of the "low down torque that one expects from a single cylinder dual sport" I can't express this enough. The reason most people love their thumper is because it makes power low down in the rpm range...
my tw200 has much, much more usuable torque right off idle than my hopped up klx250s. Less displacement, less everything but still it wants to pull all day down low. I can't understand why my larger displacement bike, with "proven" higher H.P and Torque numbers doesn't feel that way, other than suggesting there is a serious problem being presented due to different carb internals... internals that would cause the most problems down low. Like I've said before, the big main jet and lidless set up pulls hard up high at WOT where the main jet is being used and the other components are not..
KLX678, yes I've tried the enrichener. The bike runs better all across the board with the enrichener pulled. Maybe this means the canadian MAJ and the emulsion tube aren't allowing enough fuel through down low with a full FMF system and no lid.. causing my lack of power under certain rpm
Another point to mention, I never tried the MCM on my 09klx250s or my 2010klx250sf. I wasn't as confident at that time to pull the top end apart and change timing. I was more than happy with the power I experience using the dj Stage II and fmf q muffler. My SF would hit 130km/h (indicated) with stock gearing. I never felt the power to be lacking at all. A few years later, and I'm willing to do the MCM.. and just my luck it might not work the same on my 07 klx250s, and it could even go a step further by not being fueled properly because of my canadian cvk34. What fun this has all been :/
Geo pointed out that his bike ran better with MCM using the klx300 lidless recipe, in his 2007 canadian klx250s. Until I read this, I was almost convinced by klxster that I had done something wrong during my carb assembly, as his mantra is always user error. I too have caused issues in the carb due to things like spring not in the guide properly. Now, I always check my slide operation with a vacuum after assembly to ensure slide operation. That is why I'm confident that what I'm experiencing is not related to my improper carb assembly... it the canuck carb and possibly the canuck cams
-on cold starts, the bike will bog when given throttle unless the enrichener is pulled out. After a couple minutes it will accept throttle. This does not happen with the lid on, DJ 128 and needle at 3n
-when cruising along between 5500 and 6500 rpm, there is a "surge" or a feeling that the bike is dragging a rope.. this is just how MY mind imagines the sensation. That might not be the best description for someone else who might experience the same thing. Either way, it happens only at this rpm range, and only with the k158 lidless recipe. Does not happen with DJ stage 2
-No feeling of the "low down torque that one expects from a single cylinder dual sport" I can't express this enough. The reason most people love their thumper is because it makes power low down in the rpm range...
my tw200 has much, much more usuable torque right off idle than my hopped up klx250s. Less displacement, less everything but still it wants to pull all day down low. I can't understand why my larger displacement bike, with "proven" higher H.P and Torque numbers doesn't feel that way, other than suggesting there is a serious problem being presented due to different carb internals... internals that would cause the most problems down low. Like I've said before, the big main jet and lidless set up pulls hard up high at WOT where the main jet is being used and the other components are not..
KLX678, yes I've tried the enrichener. The bike runs better all across the board with the enrichener pulled. Maybe this means the canadian MAJ and the emulsion tube aren't allowing enough fuel through down low with a full FMF system and no lid.. causing my lack of power under certain rpm
Another point to mention, I never tried the MCM on my 09klx250s or my 2010klx250sf. I wasn't as confident at that time to pull the top end apart and change timing. I was more than happy with the power I experience using the dj Stage II and fmf q muffler. My SF would hit 130km/h (indicated) with stock gearing. I never felt the power to be lacking at all. A few years later, and I'm willing to do the MCM.. and just my luck it might not work the same on my 07 klx250s, and it could even go a step further by not being fueled properly because of my canadian cvk34. What fun this has all been :/
Geo pointed out that his bike ran better with MCM using the klx300 lidless recipe, in his 2007 canadian klx250s. Until I read this, I was almost convinced by klxster that I had done something wrong during my carb assembly, as his mantra is always user error. I too have caused issues in the carb due to things like spring not in the guide properly. Now, I always check my slide operation with a vacuum after assembly to ensure slide operation. That is why I'm confident that what I'm experiencing is not related to my improper carb assembly... it the canuck carb and possibly the canuck cams
#69
07-03-2017, 07:04 PM
Check and make sure there isn't a mouse in your beer.... that can cause all kinds of problems....
#70
07-03-2017, 07:23 PM
Don't know longevity. In fact my dog that helps me so much LOL in the shop, pawed the mallet off the bench to play fetch with me, and knocked the exh. cam to the floor.
I was un MCMing so the sprocket was off and it landed perfectly on a mounting ear and now I wait for a new un broken cam. Bummer.
The big stuff looks good IMO from a couple of decades in the biz. Gaskets included should be inspected. Mine were not punched correctly for coolant passages and went OEM.
After I put the circlips in my fingers I decided on OEM (kinda soft and OEM fits).
And,,, the final need-to-modify was the lower cam chain tensioner. Everything fits and is in the correct place but they stopped machining the internal relief 3mm short. So file, hacksaw or use the lathe to shorten the spring holding bolt 4mm shorter.
I'll try to make a point of a review here after 1000km of bush riding (Aug.?). I intent to do a complete borescope in the cylinder as I dial in jetting initially. If anything comes up before, I'll tell the world on Amazon .ca lol, but I,m expecting it's all good.
I was un MCMing so the sprocket was off and it landed perfectly on a mounting ear and now I wait for a new un broken cam. Bummer.
The big stuff looks good IMO from a couple of decades in the biz. Gaskets included should be inspected. Mine were not punched correctly for coolant passages and went OEM.
After I put the circlips in my fingers I decided on OEM (kinda soft and OEM fits).
And,,, the final need-to-modify was the lower cam chain tensioner. Everything fits and is in the correct place but they stopped machining the internal relief 3mm short. So file, hacksaw or use the lathe to shorten the spring holding bolt 4mm shorter.
I'll try to make a point of a review here after 1000km of bush riding (Aug.?). I intent to do a complete borescope in the cylinder as I dial in jetting initially. If anything comes up before, I'll tell the world on Amazon .ca lol, but I,m expecting it's all good.