this is very sad.
#41
12-07-2008, 01:18 AM
As a father of 2 daughters. I see alot of speculation going on in this thread. I will Summarize the facts
2 young girls in a car being followed by an adult male from a store to their house.
Over protective father comes out of the house with a gun and shoots and kills motorcylist.
Motorcyclist rider goes by house not once but twice.
There were verbal and physical confrontations between the motorcyclist and the girls, or car they were driving.
What we dont know,
We dont know how long he followed them. It could have been 200ft or 20miles.
2 young girls being followed, or chased by a guy on a motorcyle could be quite tramatic for both of them. this situation was escalated to a level it should have never achieved from the get go. You chase my daughters home and believe me when I say this, any father is going to react to that. Some react more than others.
We dont know who started the road rage. It could have been started by the motorcyclist or the girls.
Contact was made with the motorcycle and the car. This could have been done at anytime during the girls trying to get home or it could have been at the store.
We dont know if the guy on the bike was making jestures, that could have suggested he was going to physically harm them. At which point and time you should never stop and get out of the vehicle it will only make matters worse
I was once driving from CT to NY and a guy on a motorcycle pulled up next to me and motioned like he wanted to kick my ***. For what reason, I have no idea. He was riding in front of me and his wife/gf was riding in the same lane next him. Eventually we went our seperate ways and there was no further incident. That situation could have gotten way out of control, and trust me when I say had a firearm been brandished, I would not have thought twice to turn the guy into a speed bump. So we dont know exactly what happened on the way from the store to the home.
The final fact: 2 young girls who obviously were under duress and reached for help, called their father who was a loose cannon, and should have called the police. A father who thought both of his daughters were in imminent danger killed a young kid(if I thought my daughters were in a life threatening situation, I would have protected them in a simular fashion). Luckily for my daughters future boyfriends, my wife is around to keep me level headed about such situations and guides me into doing the responsable thing), a stupid *** on a bike follows two panicked girls home instead of calling the police, then proceeds to drives by an armed man who obviously was brandishing a weapon, not once but twice! I mean how this almost deserves a darwin award. What the hell was he thinking going by the second time?
Now 2 families are destroyed! Two daughters will blame themselves for the rest of their lives for what their father did in the name of protecting them. A young kid, 21yrs old is dead! Another set of parents and entire family will never know what their son could have achieved. A mother and wife has lost her soul mate, and will probably lose everything else they had. I am almost certain whether it is now or in the near future this guy will wish he could have changed things. I know the guy on the bike would have rather had a different outcome, and had he known following 2 girls home was going to get him killed, I would hope would have acted differently!
Moral:
Dont chase people, girls or guys from an incident! Get as much info and let the police take car of it. Never ride twice by a guy who has a gun. If your only exit is the way you came then seek shelter within your current environment, dont go near the guy with the gun! Get off the bike and run to another house and ask anyone you can get to listen to call the police.
Dont blame just the father. He was not the only one who made bad decisions. Dont make false assumptions about the girls. You have no confirmed information about what type of people they were other than the safe asumption that they were scared. You can safely make this assumption because they called their father for helpAlways assume someone who has a weapon is willing to use it. Instead of passing blame on just one person, I will pray for all of them!
2 young girls in a car being followed by an adult male from a store to their house.
Over protective father comes out of the house with a gun and shoots and kills motorcylist.
Motorcyclist rider goes by house not once but twice.
There were verbal and physical confrontations between the motorcyclist and the girls, or car they were driving.
What we dont know,
We dont know how long he followed them. It could have been 200ft or 20miles.
2 young girls being followed, or chased by a guy on a motorcyle could be quite tramatic for both of them. this situation was escalated to a level it should have never achieved from the get go. You chase my daughters home and believe me when I say this, any father is going to react to that. Some react more than others.
We dont know who started the road rage. It could have been started by the motorcyclist or the girls.
Contact was made with the motorcycle and the car. This could have been done at anytime during the girls trying to get home or it could have been at the store.
We dont know if the guy on the bike was making jestures, that could have suggested he was going to physically harm them. At which point and time you should never stop and get out of the vehicle it will only make matters worse
I was once driving from CT to NY and a guy on a motorcycle pulled up next to me and motioned like he wanted to kick my ***. For what reason, I have no idea. He was riding in front of me and his wife/gf was riding in the same lane next him. Eventually we went our seperate ways and there was no further incident. That situation could have gotten way out of control, and trust me when I say had a firearm been brandished, I would not have thought twice to turn the guy into a speed bump. So we dont know exactly what happened on the way from the store to the home.
The final fact: 2 young girls who obviously were under duress and reached for help, called their father who was a loose cannon, and should have called the police. A father who thought both of his daughters were in imminent danger killed a young kid(if I thought my daughters were in a life threatening situation, I would have protected them in a simular fashion). Luckily for my daughters future boyfriends, my wife is around to keep me level headed about such situations and guides me into doing the responsable thing), a stupid *** on a bike follows two panicked girls home instead of calling the police, then proceeds to drives by an armed man who obviously was brandishing a weapon, not once but twice! I mean how this almost deserves a darwin award. What the hell was he thinking going by the second time?
Now 2 families are destroyed! Two daughters will blame themselves for the rest of their lives for what their father did in the name of protecting them. A young kid, 21yrs old is dead! Another set of parents and entire family will never know what their son could have achieved. A mother and wife has lost her soul mate, and will probably lose everything else they had. I am almost certain whether it is now or in the near future this guy will wish he could have changed things. I know the guy on the bike would have rather had a different outcome, and had he known following 2 girls home was going to get him killed, I would hope would have acted differently!
Moral:
Dont chase people, girls or guys from an incident! Get as much info and let the police take car of it. Never ride twice by a guy who has a gun. If your only exit is the way you came then seek shelter within your current environment, dont go near the guy with the gun! Get off the bike and run to another house and ask anyone you can get to listen to call the police.
Dont blame just the father. He was not the only one who made bad decisions. Dont make false assumptions about the girls. You have no confirmed information about what type of people they were other than the safe asumption that they were scared. You can safely make this assumption because they called their father for helpAlways assume someone who has a weapon is willing to use it. Instead of passing blame on just one person, I will pray for all of them!
Last edited by buffalony; 12-07-2008 at 01:28 AM.
#43
12-07-2008, 05:12 AM
I have two daughters as well, and I have to disagree with you. What we do know
1. The street had a cul-de-sac at the end....he had to go by again.
2. Dad had a prior history of bad decisions involving firearms.
3. The girls had damaged his new bike, how was he supposed to write down their information while riding?
4. The Dad placed himself in the path of the bike and fired shots.
Putting myself in his position I would:
1. Hope that I had raised my daughters better than to run from an accident.
2. Calm them down and get control of the situation, instead of exacerbating it.
3. Flag the biker down and try to handle things man-to man.
4. Punish my daughters for being disrespectful of someones property (running from an accident), and disrespect to another person (flipping him off instead of being adults/calling the police and stopping).
This guy was a complete psycho, and shot/killed someone over what should have been a minor issue. His daughters should shoulder some of the blame. If they had done the right thing in the first place, this situation would never have occurred.
1. The street had a cul-de-sac at the end....he had to go by again.
2. Dad had a prior history of bad decisions involving firearms.
3. The girls had damaged his new bike, how was he supposed to write down their information while riding?
4. The Dad placed himself in the path of the bike and fired shots.
Putting myself in his position I would:
1. Hope that I had raised my daughters better than to run from an accident.
2. Calm them down and get control of the situation, instead of exacerbating it.
3. Flag the biker down and try to handle things man-to man.
4. Punish my daughters for being disrespectful of someones property (running from an accident), and disrespect to another person (flipping him off instead of being adults/calling the police and stopping).
This guy was a complete psycho, and shot/killed someone over what should have been a minor issue. His daughters should shoulder some of the blame. If they had done the right thing in the first place, this situation would never have occurred.
Last edited by zzrick; 12-07-2008 at 05:15 AM.
#44
12-08-2008, 12:08 PM
I have two daughters as well, and I have to disagree with you. What we do know
1. The street had a cul-de-sac at the end....he had to go by again.
2. Dad had a prior history of bad decisions involving firearms.
3. The girls had damaged his new bike, how was he supposed to write down their information while riding?
4. The Dad placed himself in the path of the bike and fired shots.
Putting myself in his position I would:
1. Hope that I had raised my daughters better than to run from an accident.
2. Calm them down and get control of the situation, instead of exacerbating it.
3. Flag the biker down and try to handle things man-to man.
4. Punish my daughters for being disrespectful of someones property (running from an accident), and disrespect to another person (flipping him off instead of being adults/calling the police and stopping).
This guy was a complete psycho, and shot/killed someone over what should have been a minor issue. His daughters should shoulder some of the blame. If they had done the right thing in the first place, this situation would never have occurred.
1. The street had a cul-de-sac at the end....he had to go by again.
2. Dad had a prior history of bad decisions involving firearms.
3. The girls had damaged his new bike, how was he supposed to write down their information while riding?
4. The Dad placed himself in the path of the bike and fired shots.
Putting myself in his position I would:
1. Hope that I had raised my daughters better than to run from an accident.
2. Calm them down and get control of the situation, instead of exacerbating it.
3. Flag the biker down and try to handle things man-to man.
4. Punish my daughters for being disrespectful of someones property (running from an accident), and disrespect to another person (flipping him off instead of being adults/calling the police and stopping).
This guy was a complete psycho, and shot/killed someone over what should have been a minor issue. His daughters should shoulder some of the blame. If they had done the right thing in the first place, this situation would never have occurred.
spot on
1. passing twice means he turned around and went back the way he came - this is standard procedure for anyone that has driven to a place they are unfamiliar with.
2. the dad shot the guy in the back - if they aren't facing you and aren't in the process of harming someone else then you ARE NOT JUSTIFIED IN SHOOTING. I have been through the classes to get my ccw so i am fully aware of the legal issues of even drawing your firearm let alone firing it.
3. if someone hit and runs you then flips you off, and you are on a bike so you can't write any information down nor call the police what are you going to do? probably follow them till they stop so that you can get the information and call the police then.
4. the father deserves the time, at the very least for being so wreckless and irresponsible, and needs to lose the right to own firearms since he has demonstrated an inability to properly use them and a lack of good judgement.
#45
12-08-2008, 02:45 PM
Didn't have a choice.
We dont know who started the road rage. It could have been started by the motorcyclist or the girls. Contact was made with the motorcycle and the car. This could have been done at anytime during the girls trying to get home or it could have been at the store.We dont know if the guy on the bike was making jestures, that could have suggested he was going to physically harm them. At which point and time you should never stop and get out of the vehicle it will only make matters worse.
The final fact: 2 young girls who obviously were under duress and reached for help, called their father who was a loose cannon, and should have called the police. A father who thought both of his daughters were in imminent danger killed a young kid(if I thought my daughters were in a life threatening situation, I would have protected them in a simular fashion).
[QUOTE=buffalony;343546]I am almost certain whether it is now or in the near future this guy will wish he could have changed things.[/quote[
Well, hindsight is 20/20. The key to being a decent human being however is to THINK about things BEFORE you do them, not after. Ask questions first, then shoot - or return fire if necessary. Don't shoot first.
I know the guy on the bike would have rather had a different outcome, and had he known following 2 girls home was going to get him killed, I would hope would have acted differently!
I have perfectly confirmed information about the type of person the father is - the kind that shoots at people without justification, doesn't think before he acts, and kills people by shooting them in the back, while standing in the middle of a residential street, waving a gun around.
#46
12-08-2008, 09:36 PM
Quote by srobak
Not justification for coming outside waving a gun around discharging a weapon. If there was a problem - the girls needed to call the police while en route to their house. Quite possible that the rider had no idea that they were teenagers. If your daughters are in their teens, then you should know what I am talking about - as most all of them try their damndest to look college aged or older.
You are absolutely right. I am not defending justification to shoot the rider. The father was in the wrong! the Kids were in the wrong! The guy on the bike failed to user better judgement on several occasions. What all of you are saying is you cant remember 10 numbers? The only 10 numbers that rider needed to remember was Tail the girls long enough to get the plate. Then stop and use his cell phone or stop at the nearest pay phone if he didnt have one. The only 10 numbers he needed was 911 and the 7 numbers and letters on the plate.
Qoute by srobak
Didn't have a choice.
He absolutely had a choice? your telling me for a fact that all of you know that every house on that street was empty and nobody was home. Me I would have went to the farthest house and started beating on the door and yelling help! If that does't work then you dump the bike and start jumping fences! The fact that he made it by the maniac once, was probably a miracle! Why test fate twice?
Originally Posted by srobak
Still not justification to come out waving a gun around or shooting someone with it.
I agree with you.
Originally Posted by srobak
Doesn't matter. Call the cops
I agree. All parties to include the father should have called 911, to include the biker
Originally Posted by srobak
Escalated by them. Call the cops next time.
So you think it is ok to traumatize girls and the only people who should have used their heads was 2 teenage kids and not a 21yr old man? the biker should have stopped chase and called the police. the girls should have continued to their final destination and called police instead of calling their father, if they felt they were in danger.
Originally Posted by srobak
would you have taught your daughters well enough so they would know to call the cops when they are in perceived immediate danger and Dad's not around?
I hope I am.
Originally Posted by srobak
A motorcycle passing by 1 time or 100 times while your daughters are parked in your driveway and you are standing in the front yard with a gun IS NOT IMMINENT DANGER.
First off I would not have shot the guy. I would not have even had a weapon on me. Because before the guy got to me, i would have hoped that the police would have got to him! Personally, If my kids called me in this situation. i would have grabbed a "free" phone, one that I am not using and while keeping my daughters on the phone, I would have called 911. this way i was in touch with them and the police at all times.
A moron with a gun is.
Agreed!!
The key to being a decent human being however is to THINK about things BEFORE you do them, not after.
Could not have said it better myself.
The point I am trying to make is this could have been avoided at several times before the father got involved. I am not protecting nor justifying shooting people, especially in the back, nor am I protecting the father. Many of you are acting like the guy on the bike made perfect decisions, he didn't. He made several mistakes that led him right into the arms of a maniac with a gun.
The father has to pay for what he has done! i hope that morally he judges himself harder than any court sentence!
You shouldn't need your wife to help you keep your cool. If you need that, then you have no business owning or using a gun.
Dont judge me like most of you have judged this story. Nobody here knows me, nor knows what I would or wouldn't do. Hopefully, by now everyone has figured out that I am not siding with the Father on this sad event. the father has to carry a significant amount of the blame because he is the one who pulled the trigger. The point I attempted to make is even when you think you dont have a choice, you always have a choice.The rider chose to chase 2 girls home instead of memorize a plate number and stopping to call in the hit and run, which would have resulted in some traffic sitations, the girls would be in trouble, and he would still be alive. Sometimes when the **** is hitting the fan and choices are made at brake neck speed we make bad choices. the father will now have to live and die with the fact he shot a person in the back and killed them. The rider died with the choices he made. While the choices he made should not have ended his life. He could have avoided being killed at any point. Most states have no fault insurance. All of you are going to risk your life chassing someone home just to make sure you dont pay the insurance premium? The girls will live and die with the choices that everyone made.
Not justification for coming outside waving a gun around discharging a weapon. If there was a problem - the girls needed to call the police while en route to their house. Quite possible that the rider had no idea that they were teenagers. If your daughters are in their teens, then you should know what I am talking about - as most all of them try their damndest to look college aged or older.
You are absolutely right. I am not defending justification to shoot the rider. The father was in the wrong! the Kids were in the wrong! The guy on the bike failed to user better judgement on several occasions. What all of you are saying is you cant remember 10 numbers? The only 10 numbers that rider needed to remember was Tail the girls long enough to get the plate. Then stop and use his cell phone or stop at the nearest pay phone if he didnt have one. The only 10 numbers he needed was 911 and the 7 numbers and letters on the plate.
Qoute by srobak
Didn't have a choice.
He absolutely had a choice? your telling me for a fact that all of you know that every house on that street was empty and nobody was home. Me I would have went to the farthest house and started beating on the door and yelling help! If that does't work then you dump the bike and start jumping fences! The fact that he made it by the maniac once, was probably a miracle! Why test fate twice?
Originally Posted by srobak
Still not justification to come out waving a gun around or shooting someone with it.
I agree with you.
Originally Posted by srobak
Doesn't matter. Call the cops
I agree. All parties to include the father should have called 911, to include the biker
Originally Posted by srobak
Escalated by them. Call the cops next time.
So you think it is ok to traumatize girls and the only people who should have used their heads was 2 teenage kids and not a 21yr old man? the biker should have stopped chase and called the police. the girls should have continued to their final destination and called police instead of calling their father, if they felt they were in danger.
Originally Posted by srobak
would you have taught your daughters well enough so they would know to call the cops when they are in perceived immediate danger and Dad's not around?
I hope I am.
Originally Posted by srobak
A motorcycle passing by 1 time or 100 times while your daughters are parked in your driveway and you are standing in the front yard with a gun IS NOT IMMINENT DANGER.
First off I would not have shot the guy. I would not have even had a weapon on me. Because before the guy got to me, i would have hoped that the police would have got to him! Personally, If my kids called me in this situation. i would have grabbed a "free" phone, one that I am not using and while keeping my daughters on the phone, I would have called 911. this way i was in touch with them and the police at all times.
A moron with a gun is.
Agreed!!
The key to being a decent human being however is to THINK about things BEFORE you do them, not after.
Could not have said it better myself.
The point I am trying to make is this could have been avoided at several times before the father got involved. I am not protecting nor justifying shooting people, especially in the back, nor am I protecting the father. Many of you are acting like the guy on the bike made perfect decisions, he didn't. He made several mistakes that led him right into the arms of a maniac with a gun.
The father has to pay for what he has done! i hope that morally he judges himself harder than any court sentence!
You shouldn't need your wife to help you keep your cool. If you need that, then you have no business owning or using a gun.
Dont judge me like most of you have judged this story. Nobody here knows me, nor knows what I would or wouldn't do. Hopefully, by now everyone has figured out that I am not siding with the Father on this sad event. the father has to carry a significant amount of the blame because he is the one who pulled the trigger. The point I attempted to make is even when you think you dont have a choice, you always have a choice.The rider chose to chase 2 girls home instead of memorize a plate number and stopping to call in the hit and run, which would have resulted in some traffic sitations, the girls would be in trouble, and he would still be alive. Sometimes when the **** is hitting the fan and choices are made at brake neck speed we make bad choices. the father will now have to live and die with the fact he shot a person in the back and killed them. The rider died with the choices he made. While the choices he made should not have ended his life. He could have avoided being killed at any point. Most states have no fault insurance. All of you are going to risk your life chassing someone home just to make sure you dont pay the insurance premium? The girls will live and die with the choices that everyone made.
Last edited by buffalony; 12-08-2008 at 09:49 PM.
#47
12-09-2008, 02:13 AM
I still place no fault on the rider. Why were the girls traumatized? They were scared because they had done something that they know was not right. The rider did NOTHING illegal. Read the comments (after the news stories) from the people who live in the town ad are familiar with the details. I do believe that you are not defending the father, and you seem like a good guy to me. I just do not understand why the rider deserves any of the blame for what happened. Would you really not follow someone to get information for fear of being shot? If so, you must live in a dangerous place. Your comment about remembering the plate number may or may not be true. I have been in some very streesful situations before, and remembering the details can be a little fuzzy afterwards. I would want to be sure I had the right person before I called the cops. Maybe I don't live with enough fear, I don't know. Most Fathers I know would absolutely do anything to protect their children, just like you would, and me. We also understand that our kids (especially over-dramatic daughters) exaggerate things sometimes. This Dad was a psycho...hands down. If anyone else is to blame for escalating the situation it is the girls who ran from the scene of an accident while flipping off the guy they hit. Not the rider who wanted his two day-old bike fixed.
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