As a prelude to this topic I have to inform everyone that this comes from a speeding ticket my buddy and I received a couple of weeks ago. We were informed by the state trooper that we were doing 80 in a 65. The ticket states that the speed was acquired with a laser gun, for the record. I was able to talk the trooper into giving us 79 in a 65 since I was leaving for Afghanistan a few day later, yada, yada, yada. That basically prevented us from getting points on our licenses. Easy day... Just so you know we were traveling closer to 90 or better.

FYI I have my ZX10 equipped with a Passport X50 radar/laser detector (hardwired to the bike and powered by the high-beams, for obvious reasons) and a remote alert LED device in my helmet. Also equipped on the bike is a Blinder laser jammer system (also hardwired at the battery with a power switch just under my left leg) with a transmitter at the front just under the headlights and at the back just under the tail light, in front of the license plate. My mistake was not doing some serious research on these countermeasure systems before I started using them with the idea that I was basically running invisible. I feel now that I was pretty seriously mistaken and have since done some more legitimate research. This is to help understand it more and possibly shed some light on the rumors and misconceptions about motorcycles and their ability/inability to avoid speed detection devices used by law enforcement.

The bottom line is motorcycles are NOT invisible to radar or laser at all, ever. However... you can make your motorcycle more difficult to detect with certain systems granted you have the --->MONEY and motivation/will. Of course if you don't have a ton of money there are some inexpensive ways to make your bike harder to see, electronically speaking.

The following is an edited e-mail I sent to my buddy regarding the issue and my thoughts based on what I had found. Our issue was, at the time, if the ticket was really legitimate since we were on bikes and I was running the countermeasure systems...


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So I have been doing some serious research on the whole radar detector/laser jammer thing. Looks like there was a very good chance they may have gotten us. It really depends on how far away the laser was when the cop got a speed reading on us. It would seem that when I got the alarm for active laser we had a couple seconds to slow down before he had an actual speed reading. That sort of makes sense considering we were going faster the 80mph. So I have a pretty good idea how the laser thing works now. The laser works better in front of the target vehicle to get an accurate reading, but still works well from behind. Some cars are harder to pick up then others and bikes are obviously even harder. The idea is to hold the laser on the target car until it's close enough to get a reading. For bikes that distance would likely be within 500 feet or less. Your bike being an even harder target then mine due to the color. The laser jammer makes life even more difficult for the laser, effectively reducing the distance even more but not making the bike invisible. Once you're close enough they'll get a reading. Now that I think back I remember a trooper parked on the north bound side just south of an overpass. I'm certain that guy was running the laser from there. The best target for laser on a bike is the headlights followed by the license plate. They have something called a veil that goes on the headlights that really makes life difficult for laser. Putting it on a bike clearly helps a great deal. The veil combined with a jammer makes a bike nearly invisible to laser but at close range doesn't matter. Of course at close range you would have hopefully heard the alarm and slowed down enough that it wouldn't matter.

As for radar jamming, there is a good chance the jammer idea doesn't work. I'm going to let dad try it out and see what he can come up with. Clearly he has a little more experience with electronic countermeasures then the clowns on these forums. Helps that he was installing, maintaining and repairing the early warning systems for SR-71's and other highspeed military aircraft. Also note that the equipment that he was working on back then is likely the new stuff the cops are using today. Either way bikes aren't invisible to radar either, just hard as hell to pick up at normal distances and nearly impossible at great distances with the extreme angles of the fairings and smaller size. Our bikes would be like stealth fighters compared to dad's Goldwing which would be more like a non-stealth fighter. Clearly a chromed out Harley would be like a giant lumbering bomber from WWII. I wouldn't be surprised if the Harley has a larger radar cross section then a Ford Excursion. Obviously it wouldn't matter since they can't really break the speed limit with any seriousness let alone move at all.

So my thoughts are split down the middle so to speak. It seems these systems are great for the times when you don't feel like running but still want to speed with-in reason making them great for cruisers like the Goldwings. On the days you want to ride "***** to the wall" speed detectors and jammers are nearly useless especially when you plan on launching at the first sign of a cruiser in your mirror. Of course if you're "***** to the wall" you likely won't see a cruiser behind you anyway. The only advantage I can see to the detection/jamming systems is that they alert you to active radar and laser so you can be watching your mirrors more vigilantly in the event that a cop is coming after you. Much like what happened to us.

So that's what I have come up with so far. Seems to be pretty accurate. I'll keep you posted on my dad's progress. You might like to post this on the Yamaha forum. I'm going to put up a thread on the Kawasaki forum.

Here's an interesting short read, food for thought... http://www.speedzones.com/radar_cross_section.html

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There are some other details that I didn't put in this message like... shiny helmets help laser, etc. Obviously any additional input or experience is welcome. I'll be more then happy to respond to follow up questions with the best of my knowledge. I'm hoping for a couple new angles or info that I hadn't come accross or thought of.

Hope this helps a little.

Always ride safely and within your abilities, even if you are breaking the law, a little...

Scotty



I'm going to attach a picture of my ZX10 from the rear where the laser jamming device is quite visible. Also my buddy's R6 as a bonus.



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right on Batt sum good reading.[sm=interesting.gif]

 

Well, couple of problems here....

1> Your rear jammer transducer is angled incorrectly. Those things have an extremely thin vertical spread and should be mounted as parallel to the road surface as possible. You are sending yours off into the trees. Your manual should explain this in detail.
2> Laser & Radar jammers are illegal to operate on any motor vehicle in all 50 states.
3> Jammers have a very low power/signal strength which severely limits it's effective range, and most only operate intermittently when activated. Your manual should explain this in great detail as well.
4> "shiny surfaces" doing the reflection is a myth. While they do reflect better than other surfaces - all the surfaces will reflect both lidar and radar, right down to your tires. Lidar guns use a viewfinder so the operator can point it at any surface he sees fit on your vehicle. Yes, the best is the plate, but if need be - there are plenty of other surfaces, and the device only needs to sample 3 times (at a rate of about 20 samples per second) in order to get a lock on you. I might also add that lidar changes frequency at random intervals per second to eliminate interference and crosstalk, giving the most accurate reading possible. Chances are even if your jammer has a wide frequency spectrum - it isn't going to cover as much bandwidth or change as rapidly as it needs to in order to confuse the gun.
5> The effective range of lidar can be as great as 7 kilometers. That's nearly 5 miles. Of course this is completely impractical, so most aren't even geared towards this - but don't think you need to be close - laser is an incredibly efficient method of transmitting and reflecting "light", and it is dead-stable. It is either on or off, and there is no in-between. Beam spread is less than 4 inches per kilometer.

This "clown" may not have worked on SR-71s (although he was stationed at Beale, home of the 71), but he is certified in radar and lidar operations and had both in his patrol unit.

 

I agree that we can not make are bikes invisible but can only make them harder to be detected. or be able to know when there is a threat to us. I too have the x-50 and the HARD to alert me of any threats. with all the technical bs aside and giving a real world review, the unit works great. I have not had any speeding tickets since its installation either.

You have to look at what the detector has done for me; one is it has alerted me to threats that would most likely would have resulted in a ticket if I had not known that LEO was up ahead checking speeds of oncoming vehicles.

Two it also has made me more aware of the speed I am traveling as well and by keeping my speed down that has prevented possible tickets as well. I long ago posted a topic "Why does my bike feel so comfortable at 100 MPH" and the fact is that it does and it is easy to cruise at 90 + all the time especially when commuting. This will result in a ticket sooner or later.

Bottom line is it helped me and can help anyone else if it is used properly.

BTW I looked at the blinder and did my research on it, I did not go with it due to the price and I did not want o see the transmitters on the bike.

 

Right on! That's what I'm talking about.

First of all the clown comment was directed toward the nerds from a plethora of forums that I had surfed through. Mostly naive kids. No offense was meant.

The rear jammer is actually angled correctly. The picture angle and the lean of the bike on the side stand make it look like it's off. I used a bubble level and a large amount of time to make certain both jammers are as level as humanly possible. I even went through the trouble to load the bikes suspension with my riding weight. You can certainly bet I read the instruction manual front to back about a dozen times.

No doubt the jammers aren't 100% and I wouldn't or didn't say that they are. Regardless of how effective the jammer is at some point the source device will get the signal and obviously the LEO will get a speed reading. The advantage is that it can and likely will buy some time to quickly bring your speed down before an accurate reading is taken. That's great for conventional automobiles and cruisers but if you're riding like an **** then it really only acts like an early warning system. Once you're aware that you have been painted and likely being pursued then you can act or not act from there.

Clearly my knowledge in this subject is limited however... I would disagree to a point on the issue of "shiny' surfaces. When painting a target with a laser targeting device it's the shiny surfaces that make life easier for the guy on the ground. If I don't get a good reflection off of the target or target area then the receiving ordnance's system will have greater difficulty locking to it, if at all. Generally the weapons officer or pilot will be quick to inform you. When there are vehicles in the area, and there usually are, then it's an easy day to a degree. Surfaces that would seem reflective can be disappointing like windows and painted body panels that are dirty or severely scuffed. Tactical vehicles with flat camo paint are nearly useless. Conveniently, polished or chrome rims are an easy kill. Granted military laser is considerably different then civilian but the same physics apply.

For the issue of legality, in 1997 the FCC banned radar jammers claiming malicious interference. Only radar jammers are illegal in all 50 states per the FCC. Laser jammers are only illegal in a few states and that's obviously state observed. The GSP that issued my ticket physically inspected my equipment and that was it. The GSP knew we were traveling faster but 80 is what they got us on. In the jammer's defense it saved me a higher fine. My father wants to try for Radar Roy's $5000 dollar challenge of building an effective passive radar scrambler. I'll back him, he's been in the line of work nearly his entire life. Now he's retired and retired people seem to like projects.

Hopefully I'm not kicking off a flaming thread. Only trying to pass on the word. The word being that motorcycles, sport bikes specifically, are not immune to radar or laser. I am interested in discussing it in greater detail though.

 

You pretty much nailed it Notstock. In all honesty the detector and jammer on my bike had slowed me down a bit. It even slowed down my buddy when we ride together. He says it makes him nervous. After the speeding ticket we had to step back and reconsider our angle on the detection issue. I decided, a little late, to look into the tech side and what it really does for the user. I could have easily saved myself some money by not getting the equipment and nothing would have changed. Likely wouldn't have gotten a ticket that day. I do like having the gear on my bike though. I can use it in my own way and not really how the manufacturers intended. I feel like I have a couple new eyes but seeing on a different band width and spectrum. Kind of cool when you visualize it.

I don't mind mounting the sensors to the bike in the way of aesthetics. Makes for a nice conversation piece, when people actually notice and inquire. Most often people don't even realize it's there unless I point it out. I'm a bit of a gear queer anyway so I really don't mind to much.

Scotty

 

i know iv gotten the point but its been a good read. keep the info coming if anything new comes up.

 

this is great information. was the radar/laser unit used to detect your speed by the officer a hand held device by any chance? if so they are notorious for what is called a "panning error" in the reading. take it to trial baby!!!! this might help ya ;-]

 

Nothing wrong with some good ole heated discussion as long as it doesn't get personal if that happens then I have to regulate some a$$. LOL

 

No idea on what type of device was used. It only states on the ticket that laser was used. The GSP was pretty cool with me and I have no gripes about the situation as a whole. It was a lesson and a pretty cheap one as well. Lesson learned...

Thanks for the link. That's pretty informative. One thing I have found is they can't ticket you for speeding if the reading is beyond 1000 feet. It's a law and I would have to dig again to find it. Apparently a judge in some case went in favor of the guy who was ticketed. I'm certain that's federal and now they have to pull your speed at a 1000 feet or less. If I come across it again I'll post it here so don't hold me to it.

Scotty