Long winded over heating question....stumped..WTF????
#11
07-26-2016, 09:53 PM
If the fan works intermittently the thermostat or one sensor or the other may be bad, but the fan sensor is working as is the temp light.
I would think it is likely the thermostat may be the issue, least effort to change out, and easiest to test with a candy thermometer or just swap out if low enough priced. I'd see if there is an auto thermostat of the same size and degree setting.
If the thermostat opens at the proper temp then it is either the fan sensor or the temperature sensor.
Those sensors can be tested similar to the thermostat, but will require some sort of circuit like a volt-ohm meter. Find the temp where it should start - continuity, 0 ohms resistance, otherwise it should be at whatever the meter reads for infinite resistance. Both should be on/off sensors.
Thermobob is totally about uniform proper operating temperature. Check out his site and the media comments too. The coolant doesn't flow until the thermostat opens, leaving the base of the cylinder significantly cooler than the top, uneven thermal expansion. It would definitely be worth consideration on a big bore. Bypass allows coolant movement even when the thermostat is closed. Proper coolant flow to maintain uniform temperatures at a high enough level for an IC engine... around 195-200 degrees.
I would think it is likely the thermostat may be the issue, least effort to change out, and easiest to test with a candy thermometer or just swap out if low enough priced. I'd see if there is an auto thermostat of the same size and degree setting.
If the thermostat opens at the proper temp then it is either the fan sensor or the temperature sensor.
Those sensors can be tested similar to the thermostat, but will require some sort of circuit like a volt-ohm meter. Find the temp where it should start - continuity, 0 ohms resistance, otherwise it should be at whatever the meter reads for infinite resistance. Both should be on/off sensors.
Thermobob is totally about uniform proper operating temperature. Check out his site and the media comments too. The coolant doesn't flow until the thermostat opens, leaving the base of the cylinder significantly cooler than the top, uneven thermal expansion. It would definitely be worth consideration on a big bore. Bypass allows coolant movement even when the thermostat is closed. Proper coolant flow to maintain uniform temperatures at a high enough level for an IC engine... around 195-200 degrees.
Last edited by klx678; 07-26-2016 at 10:09 PM.
#12
07-27-2016, 01:35 AM
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Milton Ont Canada
Posts: 302
Put a couple temperature strips on the radiators perhaps? Not sure how accurate they read though.
I got these at McMaster Carr - McMaster-Carr
I got these at McMaster Carr - McMaster-Carr
#13
07-27-2016, 01:38 AM
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Milton Ont Canada
Posts: 302
If the fan works intermittently the thermostat or one sensor or the other may be bad, but the fan sensor is working as is the temp light.
I would think it is likely the thermostat may be the issue, least effort to change out, and easiest to test with a candy thermometer or just swap out if low enough priced. I'd see if there is an auto thermostat of the same size and degree setting.
If the thermostat opens at the proper temp then it is either the fan sensor or the temperature sensor.
Those sensors can be tested similar to the thermostat, but will require some sort of circuit like a volt-ohm meter. Find the temp where it should start - continuity, 0 ohms resistance, otherwise it should be at whatever the meter reads for infinite resistance. Both should be on/off sensors.
Thermobob is totally about uniform proper operating temperature. Check out his site and the media comments too. The coolant doesn't flow until the thermostat opens, leaving the base of the cylinder significantly cooler than the top, uneven thermal expansion. It would definitely be worth consideration on a big bore. Bypass allows coolant movement even when the thermostat is closed. Proper coolant flow to maintain uniform temperatures at a high enough level for an IC engine... around 195-200 degrees.
I would think it is likely the thermostat may be the issue, least effort to change out, and easiest to test with a candy thermometer or just swap out if low enough priced. I'd see if there is an auto thermostat of the same size and degree setting.
If the thermostat opens at the proper temp then it is either the fan sensor or the temperature sensor.
Those sensors can be tested similar to the thermostat, but will require some sort of circuit like a volt-ohm meter. Find the temp where it should start - continuity, 0 ohms resistance, otherwise it should be at whatever the meter reads for infinite resistance. Both should be on/off sensors.
Thermobob is totally about uniform proper operating temperature. Check out his site and the media comments too. The coolant doesn't flow until the thermostat opens, leaving the base of the cylinder significantly cooler than the top, uneven thermal expansion. It would definitely be worth consideration on a big bore. Bypass allows coolant movement even when the thermostat is closed. Proper coolant flow to maintain uniform temperatures at a high enough level for an IC engine... around 195-200 degrees.
#15
07-27-2016, 03:51 AM
Long winded is right
does it consistently puke coolant from the overflow tube? When the engine is up to temp squeeze the rad hose and see if the system pressurizes. At this point, we need to see if the bike is actually overheating of if it's an indicator malfunction.
I had an intermittent problem with the warning light but it cleared after cleaning the connector. Check the basic stuff first.
does it consistently puke coolant from the overflow tube? When the engine is up to temp squeeze the rad hose and see if the system pressurizes. At this point, we need to see if the bike is actually overheating of if it's an indicator malfunction. I had an intermittent problem with the warning light but it cleared after cleaning the connector. Check the basic stuff first.
#16
07-27-2016, 11:08 AM
200 degrees on the head - pretty much normal then. Read the information on the Wattman's site.
Realize the reason for a radiator cap specifically is it holds pressure to a point allowing the coolant to run over 212 degrees F without vaporizing. Fact is cars most car thermostats are 180-195 degree F to let the engine heat up to a near efficient temperature before the thermostat starts to open.
Here is a quote from Dan's Motorcycle, a fairly well respected site:
It sounds like a thermostat or temp sensor issue if you are seeing 200 degrees F on the head. That is essentially pretty much normal running temp for the metal, the coolant inside would be a bit cooler. If it wasn't it wouldn't be cooling the engine.
Some questions. Since there is a max level on the reservoir to allow it to have room to hold the overflow from the radiator, why is there coolant flowing out of it? Is the radiator significantly low after these sessions due to this? There are two levels in the coolant overflow, cold and hot. If coolant is at the right level there should be no overflow. The coolant should slightly fill into the reservoir and then draw a bit back into the engine.
Get a thermometer and verify when the thermostat starts to open and when it is fully open. The manual for the 06 has opening at about 160 degF, full open at 185 degF. Stirring the water for uniform temp in the water. This shouldn't be any problem, candy thermometers aren't expensive.
If close to a dealer or if a car parts store has the equipment have the radiator cap checked. Should be 14-18 psi
The manual shows the check of the water temp sensor check having the resistance climbing from off to on at 236-255 degF and dropping from on to off being 223-217 degF. It uses a volt ohm meter with the + on the sensor plug terminal and - on the threaded body placed in water with the thermometer, like testing the thermostat. May need help since water also should be stirred. This is the shop manual method.
Same procedure with the fan sensor, but the temps go off-on 201-212 degF and on-off 199-194 degF.
Fan coming on and shutting off, 200 degF temp on head, tells me to first check the thermostat and replace if needed. If the thermostat is good then the temp sensor is the next step. Odds of all three items going south at the same time isn't too likely.
Realize the reason for a radiator cap specifically is it holds pressure to a point allowing the coolant to run over 212 degrees F without vaporizing. Fact is cars most car thermostats are 180-195 degree F to let the engine heat up to a near efficient temperature before the thermostat starts to open.
Here is a quote from Dan's Motorcycle, a fairly well respected site:
"Engines run usually best with a 190 degree thermostat. Most bike thermostats only come in one temperature... the one they give you! I just mention this because some people think that running a cooler thermostat helps the engine cool better, but it doesn't really matter. Combustion runs a lot hotter than that water. 10-15 degrees doesn't mean a thing to that engine,"
One from Motocross Action:"How hot does an engine run? ... Cylinder temperatures are also in the 600-degree range, while the water temperature should vary from 200 to 300 degrees (the closer to 300 the closer to catastrophe). Most race teams would like (my emphasis) to keep their basic water temp below 200 degrees if possible."
Remember that 200 degrees would not be at the head, it would be in general. So again 200 degrees at the head, good deal.It sounds like a thermostat or temp sensor issue if you are seeing 200 degrees F on the head. That is essentially pretty much normal running temp for the metal, the coolant inside would be a bit cooler. If it wasn't it wouldn't be cooling the engine.
Some questions. Since there is a max level on the reservoir to allow it to have room to hold the overflow from the radiator, why is there coolant flowing out of it? Is the radiator significantly low after these sessions due to this? There are two levels in the coolant overflow, cold and hot. If coolant is at the right level there should be no overflow. The coolant should slightly fill into the reservoir and then draw a bit back into the engine.
Get a thermometer and verify when the thermostat starts to open and when it is fully open. The manual for the 06 has opening at about 160 degF, full open at 185 degF. Stirring the water for uniform temp in the water. This shouldn't be any problem, candy thermometers aren't expensive.
If close to a dealer or if a car parts store has the equipment have the radiator cap checked. Should be 14-18 psi
The manual shows the check of the water temp sensor check having the resistance climbing from off to on at 236-255 degF and dropping from on to off being 223-217 degF. It uses a volt ohm meter with the + on the sensor plug terminal and - on the threaded body placed in water with the thermometer, like testing the thermostat. May need help since water also should be stirred. This is the shop manual method.
Same procedure with the fan sensor, but the temps go off-on 201-212 degF and on-off 199-194 degF.
Fan coming on and shutting off, 200 degF temp on head, tells me to first check the thermostat and replace if needed. If the thermostat is good then the temp sensor is the next step. Odds of all three items going south at the same time isn't too likely.
#17
07-27-2016, 01:57 PM
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Milton Ont Canada
Posts: 302
Long winded is right does it consistently puke coolant from the overflow tube? When the engine is up to temp squeeze the rad hose and see if the system pressurizes. At this point, we need to see if the bike is actually overheating of if it's an indicator malfunction.
I had an intermittent problem with the warning light but it cleared after cleaning the connector. Check the basic stuff first.
does it consistently puke coolant from the overflow tube? When the engine is up to temp squeeze the rad hose and see if the system pressurizes. At this point, we need to see if the bike is actually overheating of if it's an indicator malfunction. I had an intermittent problem with the warning light but it cleared after cleaning the connector. Check the basic stuff first.
No, it's only spit up a bit once...but then again, I haven't pushed it since that ride also..
When I squeeze the rad hose at temp with bike running, it's very pliable... I can literally squish the hose together with 2 fingers... This seems strange to me, as far as I can recall there is more pressure than that, at least enough to prevent fully closing the hose.
If the system is not pressurizing, that would be the cap, correct?
#18
07-27-2016, 02:16 PM
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Milton Ont Canada
Posts: 302
200 degrees on the head - pretty much normal then. Read the information on the Wattman's site.
Realize the reason for a radiator cap specifically is it holds pressure to a point allowing the coolant to run over 212 degrees F without vaporizing. Fact is cars most car thermostats are 180-195 degree F to let the engine heat up to a near efficient temperature before the thermostat starts to open.
Here is a quote from Dan's Motorcycle, a fairly well respected site:
It sounds like a thermostat or temp sensor issue if you are seeing 200 degrees F on the head. That is essentially pretty much normal running temp for the metal, the coolant inside would be a bit cooler. If it wasn't it wouldn't be cooling the engine.
Some questions. Since there is a max level on the reservoir to allow it to have room to hold the overflow from the radiator, why is there coolant flowing out of it? Is the radiator significantly low after these sessions due to this? There are two levels in the coolant overflow, cold and hot. If coolant is at the right level there should be no overflow. The coolant should slightly fill into the reservoir and then draw a bit back into the engine.
Get a thermometer and verify when the thermostat starts to open and when it is fully open. The manual for the 06 has opening at about 160 degF, full open at 185 degF. Stirring the water for uniform temp in the water. This shouldn't be any problem, candy thermometers aren't expensive.
If close to a dealer or if a car parts store has the equipment have the radiator cap checked. Should be 14-18 psi
The manual shows the check of the water temp sensor check having the resistance climbing from off to on at 236-255 degF and dropping from on to off being 223-217 degF. It uses a volt ohm meter with the + on the sensor plug terminal and - on the threaded body placed in water with the thermometer, like testing the thermostat. May need help since water also should be stirred. This is the shop manual method.
Same procedure with the fan sensor, but the temps go off-on 201-212 degF and on-off 199-194 degF.
Fan coming on and shutting off, 200 degF temp on head, tells me to first check the thermostat and replace if needed. If the thermostat is good then the temp sensor is the next step. Odds of all three items going south at the same time isn't too likely.
Realize the reason for a radiator cap specifically is it holds pressure to a point allowing the coolant to run over 212 degrees F without vaporizing. Fact is cars most car thermostats are 180-195 degree F to let the engine heat up to a near efficient temperature before the thermostat starts to open.
Here is a quote from Dan's Motorcycle, a fairly well respected site:
"Engines run usually best with a 190 degree thermostat. Most bike thermostats only come in one temperature... the one they give you! I just mention this because some people think that running a cooler thermostat helps the engine cool better, but it doesn't really matter. Combustion runs a lot hotter than that water. 10-15 degrees doesn't mean a thing to that engine,"
One from Motocross Action:"How hot does an engine run? ... Cylinder temperatures are also in the 600-degree range, while the water temperature should vary from 200 to 300 degrees (the closer to 300 the closer to catastrophe). Most race teams would like (my emphasis) to keep their basic water temp below 200 degrees if possible."
Remember that 200 degrees would not be at the head, it would be in general. So again 200 degrees at the head, good deal.It sounds like a thermostat or temp sensor issue if you are seeing 200 degrees F on the head. That is essentially pretty much normal running temp for the metal, the coolant inside would be a bit cooler. If it wasn't it wouldn't be cooling the engine.
Some questions. Since there is a max level on the reservoir to allow it to have room to hold the overflow from the radiator, why is there coolant flowing out of it? Is the radiator significantly low after these sessions due to this? There are two levels in the coolant overflow, cold and hot. If coolant is at the right level there should be no overflow. The coolant should slightly fill into the reservoir and then draw a bit back into the engine.
Get a thermometer and verify when the thermostat starts to open and when it is fully open. The manual for the 06 has opening at about 160 degF, full open at 185 degF. Stirring the water for uniform temp in the water. This shouldn't be any problem, candy thermometers aren't expensive.
If close to a dealer or if a car parts store has the equipment have the radiator cap checked. Should be 14-18 psi
The manual shows the check of the water temp sensor check having the resistance climbing from off to on at 236-255 degF and dropping from on to off being 223-217 degF. It uses a volt ohm meter with the + on the sensor plug terminal and - on the threaded body placed in water with the thermometer, like testing the thermostat. May need help since water also should be stirred. This is the shop manual method.
Same procedure with the fan sensor, but the temps go off-on 201-212 degF and on-off 199-194 degF.
Fan coming on and shutting off, 200 degF temp on head, tells me to first check the thermostat and replace if needed. If the thermostat is good then the temp sensor is the next step. Odds of all three items going south at the same time isn't too likely.
I checked my temp strip on the cylinder and looks like temps were around 225-245F at the hottest... Not the most accurate, but ballpark at least.
I keep the reservoir halfway between the L and F Mark... As I used understand and it, it only spits out when coolant boils... But again, it was maybe 1/2 an ounce, if not less that came out.
The rads themselves stay at a constant level. Coolant has been in there a year with no problems.
I did the hot water test on the thermostat, started opening at around 150, and was full open around 180. But I need to check to see what full open looks like, meaning it didn't open any more, but the plug (at bottom) only came out less than 1/4", with a good portion left... If that makes any sense what so ever...
I'm leaning towards the thermostat also, which would explain the lack of pressure in the hoses (if it's not opening fully) I'd guess...
Anyways, thanks much everyone, for helping me fumble thru this...
#19
07-27-2016, 08:08 PM
Now remember, the cap is only 14-18 psi and the hose is fairly flexible, more like a bicycle tire. So it should squeeze fairly easily.
The whole thing on temps was to show that running around 200 degrees in coolant is relatively normal. One article got into running too cool. I actually used to block off one radiator on the 650 when riding in the winter mostly below 60 degrees. Fan never did come on even with the large radiator blocked off.
One thing I forgot to mention, I think they said to check for shorting in the temp sensor wiring too.
The whole thing on temps was to show that running around 200 degrees in coolant is relatively normal. One article got into running too cool. I actually used to block off one radiator on the 650 when riding in the winter mostly below 60 degrees. Fan never did come on even with the large radiator blocked off.
One thing I forgot to mention, I think they said to check for shorting in the temp sensor wiring too.
Last edited by klx678; 07-27-2016 at 08:10 PM.
