jeffward
Thanks for reply. You mean EFI has imposing torgue at low rpm, and has a blast like power at high rpm?
I think the power on a clutch should be more than 30hp if the wheel data is 27-28hp, I suppose is about 35-37hp.

The power to the wheel is always lower than the clutch.
In this case we 27/28 on the wheel.
The 300cc torque is higher than most 250cc 4T, why need more?
Do not be fooled by the numbers of manufacturers: 37hp is a very high figure that few reach 250cc 4T. The reality is that most offer between 30 and 35CV.

Look at all the changes that have to do on a CRF250 to touch the mythical barrier of 40hp on a 100% race bike!


SEE IT HERE VIDEO: WHAT IS THE BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK! PIPE? CAM? OR PISTON? | News | Motocross Action Magazine

See another comparison:

2012 250 DYNO SHOOTOUT! HOW MUCH HORSEPOWER DO THE 2012 250s REALLY MAKE: WE REVEAL THE INNER SECRETS OF THE 2012 POWERBANDS | News | Motocross Action Magazine

Should be asked whether the figures are obtained at the wheel or are the clutch! power depending on the bank offers them one way or another. I understand that my data are low, but very real-ring chain, producing% OEM covers power losses. Maybe the clutch approaching those 30hp

jeffward
I think transmision takes about 1/4, 1/3 of an engine power, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm eager to know how does the max and cruising speed changed?

The maximum speed I can not know for sure, because I have a 14-48 installed.
But I've seen tips of 130-140km / h marker. The bike cruising speed 100km / h with this development.

With the OEM (14-42) cruising speed is much higher, around 115-120km / h, and the maximum speed I can not know, but more than 150km / h.

You must understand that not having run more power more km / h. The limitation is provided by the development and rpm. The 300cc has fewer high-rpm regime, but very little. So I would say that runs less than 300cc 250cc equal development.

Another thing different is the acceleration, much better in the 300cc, takes less time to squeeze the 6th gear.

Hi Jeff
Maximum speed on standard 2010 EFI was around 115 km/h on flat road, with only free mods ( rev limiter, air box lid etc.) The 250 would struggle to get to max revs in top gear. Now I have 300cc with 13 front sprocket and OMC rear sprocket. Maximum speed is 128 -130 km/h in top gear. The bike will not rev more than about 9500 rpm, but gets there very easily on a flat road at sea level. I cannot beleive a top speed of 150 km/h from a 250. Down a hill maybe? My speed is restricted by the revs of the engine, even down hill the speed will stop when the engine hits max revs. How do you get past 9500 rpm?

Max speed on my 2011 D-Tracker KLX250SF with a KK331 big bore kit & larger snorkel is about 150kmh is short bursts & will sit at 100/110kmh fairly comfortably for cruising! (2x 17inch street wheels btw)

I have the stock SF gearing of 14/39, the front wheel will lift easy in 1st gear with this gearing & the bike turns into a torquey back street scratching wheelie monster with the 13T front sprocket fitted....:rolleyes:

La Klx 250 a todo lo que puede dar on Vimeo
Maximum speed with 14-42 OEM. Light looking for.
OEM exhaust
snorkel OEM
Light wind.

Looks impressive, it would be good to see the true speed by GPS. Because in most of cases original odometer shows more digits than real speed is.
Like in video below:

Yes indeed the odometer is very positive.
I have checked with GPS exaggerating about 10km / h

High speed
 

Jeff I read your comment under video:
Me and my clubmates little bit confused by word play of that text, please dot all i's. Choose one of two variants:
1) This bike with slight mods (ecu de-restricted, cut airbox) can run more than 150 kmh (by speedo) on flat(!) road, without tailwind. (this video was made on flat road)
2) This bike with slight mods (ecu de-restricted, cut airbox) nevertheless is pure stock and under normal conditions this stock bike does not run more than 135kmh but downhill it has reached 155 kmh (this video was made on downhill road)

Hi Jeff,

Just wanted to know if your PAIR valve is blocked. If it's not blocked it will cause the O2 sensor to get incorrect Air Fuel Ratio readings. A guy running a PCV + AT recommends this & has a very fast 331.

If you have blocked the PAIR valve, how did you do it?

Thx

My bike has the O2 sensor removed, obviously.

Entire circuit also eliminated insufflation of air into the exhaust system, including the valve. So that did not show the light of FI in Table I have replaced the sensor resistance, I remember that 1W and 220Ohm

http://www.2y4t.com/8/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=129075

Thx jeff,

Not wanting to rip out the whole smog & PAIR valve unit off my bike, I just blocked the rubber air tube (92191C) running from the PAIR valve to the cylinder head with a good blob of silastic hi-temp gasket sealant. I have absolutely NO deceleration exhaust popping now!! Job done....

https://www.kawasakiforums.com/forum...valve-3006.jpg



I found this info on another forum regarding configuring the PCv TPS & thought I would add it to your thread:

Forgive me do not quite understand your question.
Calibration was simple throttle, from 0% to 100% with the engine off.

Then it was a matter of putting the map and you're right.
I begin to suspect that the throttle body is insufficient for the 330cc, 300cc only serves for.

This was not a question Jeff, just sharing a post from another forum. The guy posted a reply from a tech man at DynoJet. Just thought I would share it on your Power Commander thread. (I'm guessing both methods work).

The throttle body I suspect could be bigger BUT when my 331 is running well, it feels extremely fast & torquey for a KLX. Have you got any ideas on using a different throttle body Jeff?

Now I understand.
I'm glad your bike is working well.

Do not know anyone who has installed a fuel injection body more, but understand that it is possible. The diameter of the throttle body is a serious limitation to the increase in performance KLX injected in the same way as with the carburetor KLX.

I have read many threads here and other forums. I am curious how this guy is doing it? i guess the speedo maybe off.




http://

I'm running the same diablo rosso tyres & stock gearing as the guys bike in the video. My speedo pretty much matches the same rpm's at 7, 8, 9 & 10,000rpm! My speedo has been checked with a friends GPS unit & was surprisingly accurate, I think the readings on the video are true enough.

If this guy is only running a 250 with just a pipe it's very impressive,(basically impossible) as he is doing what my bike does & i have a very trick 331......he for sure has a trick ecu or piggyback controller, as the stock bike is not gas "rich" enough to pull over 135kmh this easily!!! The guy is having a bit of fun on youtube by not mentioning something extra done to the bike!! I could post a similar video of my speedo with a GoPro & show an indicated 160kmh (revving the nuts of her) & say my bike is a pretty stock 250, then sit back & watch the rest of the D-Tracker world watch my video with open mouth envy...But that would be a cruel joke to play...lol

A few things to consider before ordering a Autotune unit (AT)

PCV is very easy, especially if someone with same setup passes on their MAP to you! Easy install & easy to use!

The Autotune (AT) is a completely different animal:

1. quite complicated to install - lots of wiring etc etc (crap instructions) & stuffing the PCV & Autotune all under the seat is a mission in it's self!! Can be done though. AT has to be this close to the PCV !!

https://www.kawasakiforums.com/forum...small-3056.jpg

2. your stock 02 sensor bung thread is to small & the larger bung supplied with the AT will need welding in.

3. The new Bosch wide band 02 sensor is way bigger than the stock sensor & you will have trouble finding a good spot to weld the bung. Take your time working out a place not to exposed but away from airbox plastic. (will depend on your exhaust....FMF was tricky)

4. Small single cylinder bikes are hard to tune with Autotune at low revs....just not enough reliable gas from a 250 engine for the AT to sniff for accurate readings. It will eventually work but will take way longer to fine tune than a large cylinder engine!! The 331 or 351 will work better for this reason.

5. Expect to take a week to really get you head around setting AFR's & trimming MAPS with AT & maybe a month to get really good with the software.(If your only playing for a couple of hours at a time or at weekends etc). Your gonna be doing hundreds of KM's of steady revs test riding for you to eventually get to the fine tuning side of a quality homemade MAP. No detailed video tutorials on the AT unit anywhere on the net!!! that I could find.

6. The on/off isolator switch was not suggested in the instructions. The instructions recommend taking a power feed from the rear light loom (which I did), so then the AT comes on with the ignition. With my isolator switch I can now turn off the AT when I don't want it on! When the isolator is off I can use a water-proof switch on my handlebars to toggle between MAP1 & MAP2 on the PCV.

I've got a gentle cruising/traffic MAP on MAP1 with a leaner 14.3 air/fuel/ratio (AFR) & on MAP2 is a rich hooligan MAP at 13.1 AFR which can be switched on the fly.... My handlebar switch activates the Autotune unit when the AT is on, this is called the "learning mode" & recording your AFR levels throughout the rev range & records the throttle position percentage as well, for trimming your fuel MAP at a later date. The AT will suggest the trimming levels depending on what AFR levels you have told the AT you want! This is easier than it sounds btw.........when the AT unit is off, my handlebar switch can toggle between the two MAPS i created. Kinda cool eh.... Shame the AT has to be off for the Map switch to work but that's the way it was made!

If I get some time & motivation a Autotune video tutorial for beginners on Youtube maybe on the cards!!

It's a great piece of equipment & well worth the time/effort but don't expect to just plug n play. Took a lot of head scratching & way longer than expected to fit & get working/tuning successfully. :eek:

Good luck folks :)

Thanks for the information.
Now thanks to you I know well what I can expect from Autotune!

Installation of a button maps 1 and 2 on the handlebars is highly recommended. Not only because we have two different maps to use, but also to test and note the differences better. Totally recommended and simple.
Any switch on / off handlebar can serve.

I am really happy with the tuning ability of AutoTune, my bike has never run so strong.....crisp throttle & the front wheel is pulling off the ground in 1st & 2nd gear so easily & that's with street 14/39 gearing!! Nice smooth throttle for sitting in traffic of just cruising around now as well.

The bigger the engine the more gas there is to sniff (read) from the 02 sensor. Engines around the 250cc to 350cc are harder to tune, with less gas output to take a reliable 02 reading from.

A few tips for using AutoTune with a small cc engine.

When you first start using the AT configure the max & min enleanment & enrichment to 30%, then do 3 or 4 test rides & accept the trims for the MAP. This will produce some good & some not so good results for your MAP.

Then configure the max & min enleanment & enrichment to 20%, this will start fine tuning your MAP a little. Do another 3 or 4 test runs.

Then configure the max & min enleanment & enrichment to 15%, this is where you start to really get some good results, keep this setting for around 4 or 5 long runs. When your bike is starting to feel powerful & smooth, then configure the max & min enleanment 3% & enrichment to 7%. This is very fine tuning & the longer you leave the AT running at these setting the better & finer tuned your MAP will get.

https://www.kawasakiforums.com/forum...otune-3065.jpg

Basically the smaller percentage the AutoTune is sampling at the better the fine tune is! 20 or 30% can produce errors of 20 to 30% on your MAP if you riding erratically or wrongly!

In a nutshell, try & ride like your on a dyno machine!! Smooth throttle, don't twist to hard & bog the engine down with to much fuel.....remember the AT unit is constantly sniffing your exhaust gas & trying to work out your best AFR (air fuel ratio).

The biggest problem with getting misleading MAP trim information is decelerating with the throttle still partially open....remember they don't decelerate on a dyno machine, it's all about smoothly going forward under different loads. The AutoTune is reading 0% (idle), 2, 5, 10, 20, 40, 60, 80 & 100% of your throttle position at all times!! Decelerating at high speeds with the throttle partially open sends very strange AFR readings from the 02 sensor. Set your 0% throttle position to a 0 AFR (this means the AT unit is ignoring any 0% throttle AFR readings), then set target AFR's from 2% to 100% TP....my best target AFR levels for me, are 13.1 up to 80% throttle & 12.9 AFR at 100% throttle position. btw the stronger & faster my fine tune gets, amazingly the better (lower) my fuel consumption is getting!!

So when slowing down on your bike either (1) coast with the clutch in, to a stop at 0% TP or (2) make sure your throttle is at 0% when decelerating into corners etc ....this will yeald the quickest & best fine tuned MAP results.

Hope this helps to speed up the fine tuning process for anyone using an AutoTune unit on small capacity (cc) bike. :)

Joel after you use the auto tune sensor is your map programed in the PCv? or do you need to use the auto tune sensor all the time? Can you save the map to your computer that you made with the auto tune?

Hey Yankee, yes you can save a MAP whenever you want. With the AutoTune turned on, after a good long ride with smooth throttle as described in my last post...I would plug my laptop into the PCV & have a look at the trim values the Autotune recommends, if i like the look of what it suggests then i accept the AFR trims onto the current MAP & save as a new MAP. I can load an older MAP anytime I want to check i'm getting more power & smoother throttle response.

These are my saved MAPS to date, all the MAPS we're good to ride with....it's just that they get better & better & now at a point where i'm very happy with the power. The 1st MAP on the 07/21/2012 was given to me by Bob in Indonesia with an almost identical bike to mine, it worked pretty well from the get go but now my latest MAP is way superior & tailored to my bike/climate/altitude/gasoline & riding style etc etc....Thx again Bob you supplied me with a great starting block MAP that just needed some fine tuning.
https://www.kawasakiforums.com/forum...small-3105.jpg



This is one of my previous MAPS & as you can see I don't let AutoTune touch my 0% (idle) throttle position. So heavy decelerating with 0% TP will not bugger up my AFR trim values. This shows the value of each individual fuel cell on my MAP.
https://www.kawasakiforums.com/forum...small-3104.jpg


To answer your question, yes you can leave the AutoTune switched on & it will continually adjust your MAP while your riding, this is handy for different atmospheric conditions or riding at different altitudes & even works for using different grades of gasoline (example 87 or 95 octane) will need a different AFR to get full power. If your staying at altitude then by all means save the MAP for the next time you ride at altitude.

Or when happy with your MAP just leave the AT switched off until you do something different to your engine (example, new exhaust or opening the air box etc).

This simple short tutorial youtube video taught me how easy it is to play/experiment with the AutoTune unit.

DISCLAIMER:
This technique may or may not be correct, as there is very very little in the way of instruction or online tutorials. There are no dynojet (PCV) facilities here to help me!! My only help has been Bob in Indonesia in some email correspondence, so the only way I know i'm doing it right is my bike runs very fast & smoothly......BE CAREFUL when tuning with the AutoTune as accepting AFR trims for your new MAP that are to LEAN could damage your engine. Before accepting trims from the AT unit, look at the minus (-) figures & if they look to high...DON"T accept them, cancel & start again with a smoother test ride.

I installed my PC v today. The install was simple and took about one hour. I did have to extend the ground wire to reach the battery terminal.

I would like to thank jeffward for the 250 map. Without it i would be lost to say the least. So how does it work? Well i only went for five minutes and it seems excellent. I can wheelie in first real easy with my 13/39. This was super hard before the PC v. Tomorrow i will go on the highway and do a video...

Sweet......some front wheel in the air action!! Give us a good video to watch Yankee :cool:

I think we all do our small contribution in awareness of the potential of this bike.
Not if we realize that we are the pioneers in injection modify settings for this bike in the world. Many will then evolve gradually, but the first steps are already taken.
JoelThailand work has been and is still incredible. Greatly simplifies the work for all who come after.
Right now the only injected bike is marketed in certain countries outside the United States, but I think sooner or later there will also be marketed injected. The carburetor is in the past. Aupa injection!

Well said Jeff. I have learned a lot, if not everything from guys like you, Joel and Marcelino ( missing in action ) Thanks to all the pioneers willing to experiment and post results with pictorial and dyno backup.

Hi guys!
 

im having a big doubt, here in brazil we got the KLX 250 SF model with EFI year 2010, i came from kawi versys, so i miss that torque, for fix this im about to buy a Power Commander V but not enough bucks to get the new big bore kit (from B&B 351cc) so do you think that Power Commander will help in something even if i dont have the big bore kit?

* got only the PCV + map switch without autotune.
* In Brazil the gasoline in plenty a **** not so pure ...
* i heard about a API unlimited ECU, from Apitech is this better than PCV ?

Thanks lot :)

Hi thytum,

1. Do not get a 351BB kit if you ever scrape the cash together....I have never heard of anyone with a 351BB on a EFi......only a 331 kit is proven to work!

2. APi tech programmable unlimited ecu is very difficult to use, I never really understood it fully in 6 months of use. APi have terrible tech support, even people that live near their shop in Bangkok & speak fluent Thai have had problems with them & the software is glitchy. I would not recommend the unlimited ecu. :confused:

But the APi 250 fixed box ecu is an easy plug & play. I have tried riding my bike (when it was a 250) back to back with the clutch by-pass trick & then with the standard APi fixed ecu.....The APi was more powerful than the clutch by-pass method, by a good 10 or 15%.

3. PCV is a good product, easy to use, well made software, tech support all over the world & easy to get MAP's from Power Commander and/or other users also share MAPS!! I like it.

My recommendation would be:
....... get the PCV
........do the clutch by-pass (unlocks ignition timing in 4,5 & 6th gear)
........plug in a 02 sensor emulator (which comes with the PCV) & this tricks the stock ecu into running at max richness.

btw welcome to the forum :)

It will help, but it won´t make it a Versys. I refuse to make any comments on your statement about the gas in our country, but you´re wrong.:rolleyes:

Thanks a lot man!! check my videos if you want just find for thytum user on youtube and picassaweb or facebook
ohhhh gas is bad :( mixed 20% or even 35% with alcohol ...

cheers :D

Thanks a lot man!! check my videos if you want just find for thytum user on youtube and picassaweb or facebook

Ok like to program in assembler :P i forgive the API
If you want to try & fix the APi software & learn to use a way over complicated interface. btw There is only one technician left at APi that fully understands the unlimited program & he speaks 0% English (only Thai)....up to you thytum.


But is not it just about the amount of fuel coming into cilinder solved with PCV ??
If you want to be the Guinea pig or the first pioneer of a working 351BB then go for it, there is a large number of EFi riders waiting to find someone to prove this possibility!! I personally think the stock injector is not capable of powering the extra 20cc & the throttle body on the EFi bike is small & restrictive.......it could be possible but would never be running at 100% potential of full power.
And you would definitely need an Autotune unit for the 351BB as there is no one in the world with a 351 MAP to share with you....imho

do you have a 331 CC ? how does it feel ???
Yes i do run a 331 & it is a massive difference in power from a klx/d-tracker 250, in fact it can only be described as night & day. The front wheel will lift in 1st & 2nd with no effort & my bike will accelerate hard to 155km/h with 14/39 gearing with ease.....going over 160km/h (100mph) is possible but feels a little unsafe & i weigh 230lbs/110kg!! This bike destroys cbr250's (even modified) & can beat ninja250's in acceleration up to 140km/h, then after 140km/h a modified ninja will start very slowly pulling away. The 331 low & mid torque is very strong as well. I go riding with 2 friends that are fast experienced riders with a er-6 & a Versys & they cannot loose me on any twisty fast mountain roads, i am annoyingly right up their asses all the time!! In a proper drag race my bike will sit side by side (er-6 & Versys) up to 80km/h & then they start pulling away. Around town & on back streets the 331 is faster & more maneuverable than a Versys. This 331 would be incredible if i weighed 70kg!!! Shame i weigh 110kg but still very good fun! :)

If i lived in my home country i would buy a modified DRZ400, KTM or Husqvana!! In Thailand we have to pay big tax on imported bikes....so the KLX/D-Tracker was the only available low priced bike (assembled in Thailand) of this style.

+1 Malves, it will never be a Versys!!.......the 331 cannot go long distance touring or handle long straight fast roads but it's great fun on back roads, fast twisty roads, around town or city riding.

Good luck with your choices.

Personally i don't think there is a big enough difference between the 331 & 351 to really bother with all the hassle of making a fresh new fuel MAP.

The biggest restriction is a small keihin 34mm throttle-body! To feed a performance 351 engine, a bigger injector & throttle body would be needed or you are wasting your time.

I come from the UK originally.....absolutely any motorcycle is available at a good price!!:) Not so in Thailand :(

The klx250SF is a good fun all round bike but has it's limitations if power & performance is required!! Even with a 331 big bore kit fitted, a little over 30hp is for me only just enough power to be happy!

If you think the 250 pulls strongly after 5000rpm, then you are going to be very happy with a 331BB.

cheers

Greetings to everyone!
Tell you that after many miles (34000km) performed with the Power Commander and 300cc cylinder have been all satisfactions and no problem.

Only once the engine started giving me errors every time I lifted the front wheel, cutting mysteriously injection. This occurred because the central unit of Power Commander was somewhat loose in its housing. Once again tight solved the problem.

Hi jeff, i'm planning to get my self a 300 bore up kit... Do you have any clutch slippin issues after u plug the bore up kit? Thank u

Im about to get the 331cc from kustom kraft, fmf q4 and powerbomb and im thinking about getting the PCV.

Joel would you be able to share one of your maps?

Regards

Hello. How are the PC5 bikes performing ?

really want to learn how to tune an EFI bike (KLX250).

Thanks.
.